Absolute morality

Posted on Wednesday February 10, 2010
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A recent discussion on Le Cafe Witteveen on a challenge between atheist and Christian book reviews has led me to yet another discussion on a blog that is a bit more local to me and clearly on the other side of the fence.

The Pullman WA Gospel Messengers' contributor, Justin, has put out that atheists are inconsistent when it comes to morality. He states "It’s not that atheists don’t live as if there are no absolute morals, it’s that atheists are inconsistent." Note he doesn't clarify this until a few comments later that he really meant "a vast majority". Putting that aside for a moment, what really puzzles me is his subjective understanding of the phrase "absolute morals" or "moral absolutism". To help, here is a definition from Wikipedia:

"Moral absolutism is the ethical view that certain actions are absolutely right or wrong, regardless of other contexts such as their consequences or the intentions behind them. Thus lying, for instance, might be considered to be always immoral, even if done to promote some other good (e.g., saving a life), and even if it does in the end promote such a good. Moral absolutism stands in contrast to categories of ethical theories such as consequentialism and situational ethics, which holds that the morality of an act depends on the consequences or the context of the act."

In answers to my personal comments on this thread, Justin pedals back and states "Just because there are exceptions to the rule not to kill another human being (war, self-defense to save one’s life), absolute morality does not imply that its ok to let someone die." This isn't moral absolutism. What he's thinking of is consequentialism where morals can be bent or ignored to create a good outcome. Even more frustrating is when I asked where he derived the set of absolute morals, he initially stated "absolute laws come from an absolute God" (later changed publicly to "an absolute Lawmaker" neatly covering himself). By his very statement he automatically rules out that an atheist could have absolute morals for how could they if they don't believe in God?

What it boils down to is absolute morality is a black and white situation with no gray. If this person cannot wrap his head around this simple concept, how am I to believe he will be able to wrap his head around the assigned book reviews? I had high hopes for these reviews and am now less than convinced of an intelligent outcome on the side of Christianity. Which is sad because I know there are so many very intelligent, well read, and well spoken men and women of faith out there.

Added: I have invited Justin to continue the conversation here due to stalking issues. I really would like for Justin to prove my rather heated assessment on an intelligent outcome to be incorrect!
Posted in Atheism    Tagged with morality, morals, absolute morality, consequentialism, Le Cafe Witteveen, atheist, Christian, atheism, theism


12 Comments


Justin - February 10th, 2010 at 12:18 PM
A couple of things:

(1) Mark didn't write this post. I did. :)

(2) You're rely on wikipedia.



Renee - February 10th, 2010 at 12:27 PM
I apologize and have updated the post accordingly. Sorry - I've been inundated with tons of names lately LOL.

Yes, *one* of the places I check is Wikipedia. I also check offline sources such as "Through the Moral Maze" by Robert Kane and various textbooks I've amassed over the years. Additionally, I (this may be a surprise) also rely on data and information imparted to me from days gone by when I *was* religious.

Justin - February 10th, 2010 at 12:25 PM
What happened to the rest of my comment? I said a whole lot more than that.

Renee - February 10th, 2010 at 12:32 PM
Not sure - if you're having issues, you can send me an email of what you had written. Snappages occasionally has bizarre hiccups and I let them know asap.

Justin - February 10th, 2010 at 12:44 PM
(3) Let me define it from a Christian apologist who believes in moral absolutes. His name is Norman Geisler.

"Morality, Absolute Nature of. Orthodox Christianity has always defended moral absolutes. However, most modern ethicists hold some form of relativism. Thus, it is necessary to defend the belief in moral absolutes.
Moral Absolutes. Before the absolute nature of morality can be understood, morality must be defined. Several things are meant by a moral obligation. First, a moral duty is good in itself (an end), not merely good as a means. Further, it is something we ought to pursue, a duty. Morality is prescriptive (an “ought”), not merely descriptive (an “is”). Morality deals with what is right, as opposed to wrong. It is an obligation, that for which a person is accountable.
An absolute moral obligation is:
an objective (not subjective) moral duty—a duty for all persons.
an eternal (not temporal) obligation—a duty at all times.
a universal (not local) obligation—a duty for all places."
Geisler, N. L. (1999). Baker encyclopedia of Christian apologetics. Baker reference library (501). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.

(4) I didn't evade I pointed out a strawman in your argument:

ou said: Strawman? I’ve done no such thing.”

Strawman: “If I were to say I do believe in absolute morality, would I never lie even if lying lead to say saving a life, etc.?”

That’s a strawman.

Here’s another example of a strawman (I know you did not say this, BTW) “If I were to say I do believe in absolute morality, would I never kill even to defend my own life?”

That’s another strawman. I’m not being mean. I’m just pointing out that its an argument that’s easy to tear down, because it’s not the argument.

Absolute morality does not exclude specifics.

For example, it is an absolute moral law that murder is wrong.

It is not an absolute moral law that killing is wrong.

The specific in this instance is murder.

What absolute morality means is that it is not just an opinion that murder is wrong, or that its ok to murder one day, and then not ok the next.

(5) Since we have now defined absolute morality, let me address your concern you stated:

"This isn't moral absolutism. What he's thinking of is consequentialism where morals can be bent or ignored to create a good outcome."

Actually, you're mistaken.

Geisler can say it better than I can:

"There are higher and lower moral laws. Jesus spoke of “greater sin” (John 19:11), “greater love” (John 15:13), “greatest commandment” (Matt. 5:19), and “weightier matters” of the law (Matt. 23:23). Our duty to God is greater than our duty to our neighbor. It is our God-given duty to obey government (Titus 3:1; Rom. 13:1), and yet when this conflicts with the command to worship God, we should “obey God rather than men” (Acts 5:29).

Divine approval of falsification for life-saving. There are numerous cases in Scripture where God (implicitly or explicitly) commended the faith of those involved in intentional deception in order to save lives. Obadiah hid one hundred prophets to save their lives (I Kings 18). Elisha deceived his would-be captors in order to save his life (II Kings 6:18–20). Rahab hid the spies “by faith” (Heb. 11:31) to save their lives. Indeed, the key to the spies’ safety was Rahab’s outright lie to the men at her door (Josh. 2:5). Finally, the Hebrew midwives both disobeyed government and lied to the king (Exod. 1:19) in order to save the male babies. And in this case, the text says clearly and unequivocally that “God blessed them and gave them families” as a result of what they did. Since all things in the Old Testament are “for us” (Rom. 15:4) and happened “for our example” (I Cor. 10:11), it seems difficult to avoid the conclusion that these were God-approved examples of how He wants us to behave in similar moral conflicts.




Justin - February 10th, 2010 at 12:50 PM
Wow, my paragraph breaks didn't show up. Do I need to use html on your blog?

Renee - February 10th, 2010 at 12:57 PM
It's a bug that has been reported. Love Snappages but there are some things that need to be ironed out. Thanks for putting up with it though! Oh, and no matter what we end up with in as far as agreement/disagreement, I want to thank you for participating in this conversation. Contrary to popular (ok, one person's) belief, I respect the right for all to believe in what they wish. I just happen to disagree :)

Renee - February 10th, 2010 at 12:52 PM
My problem with your source of information on absolute morals should be pretty evident. Do you have nothing to rely on that isn't Christian steeped in nature? An unbiased resource?

Justin - February 10th, 2010 at 12:57 PM
Like wikipedia. : )

You know the famous quote:

"Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information." : )

Anyhow, shouldn't a Christian get the right to define his position? I should get to speak for myself, and not let you define the debate before it even begins. It's UP TO YOU then to disagree with my premises and demonstrate why they're wrong.

Renee - February 10th, 2010 at 1:01 PM
I suppose I should clarify my thought process on this then. Suppose you knew nothing of a god or gods and you were blissfully unaware of atheism. You believe that it is impossible for a human being to come to absolute moralistic behavior simply because an all-knowing entity didn't hand it to them?

Justin - February 10th, 2010 at 1:08 PM
God gave everyone a conscience, Romans 2:14-15. That doesn't mean to say that everyone listens to their conscience, etc.

But let me ask you a question,

"Is it possible for a limited, finite being to invent an absolute?"

Renee - February 10th, 2010 at 5:12 PM
First, the Bible verse has nothing to do with me. I don't believe any god or gods gave me conscience so the superfluous Bible quoting is really unnecessary and unproductive.

Second, sure, I believe it is. Whether or not an absolute "thing" has been already invented is another question.


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